THIS SPACE IS INTENDED TO ENCOURAGE DEBATE ON
NAMING-&-SHAMING & TO PUBLISH SAID NAMES.
EVERY ATTEMPT WILL BE MADE TO VERIFY NAMES SUBMITTED
& THOSE WHO FEEL THEY HAVE BEEN INCORRECTLY NAMED
ARE MOST WELCOME TO MOTIVATE FOR THEIR REMOVAL
Naming-and-shaming Jews who act against the interests of either Judaism or Israel - have your say in this zero-tolerance campaign.
MyShtetl has always taken every opportunity to name and shame members of the community who act against the generally accepted best interests of either Judaism or Israel.
Our zero-tolerance campaigns against missionaries and Israel apologists have earned us accolades from the broad community – and, just as fervently, anger from the few who are sympathetic to their exploits. We care not about the latter.
On the missionary front, Jews for Jesus and their ilk do their utmost to steal Jewish souls and their activities have ruined the lives of many, many families. Conversely, MyShtetl gives its wholehearted support to the UOS’ Jews for Judaism. As an indicator of our vigilance in this regard, a site search for “Jews for Jesus” indicates 97 references to related items on this website.
Our story ANGER ERUPTS OVER J4J SPEAKER posted in November last year was read by over 3,000 users and had 43 comments with over ten thousand words posted. Clearly, Shtetlers don’t like missionaries either!
As far as anti-Zionist Jews and Israel-denialists are concerned, we have been approached several times by Shtetlers over the years to publish a list of those Jews who actively work against the State of Israel. Just last week this topic came up once again when both groups of antagonists attempting to get the Hilton Arts Festival to throw out three Israeli plays including Jewish South Africans.
SEE: ART FESTIVAL REFUSES TO BOYCOTT ISRAEL
MyShtetl addressed a mail to various communal leaders last week engaging on their views regarding naming and shaming individuals involved in such anti-Israeli practices. The response was almost unanimously in favour of doing so.
Serendipitously, well-known right wing Cape Town Zionist DAVID HERSCH POSTED the following: “Let us name and shame the Jewish members of Open Shuhada Street and apply public sanction to them even if we cannot apply a religious Cherem on them.” David has named four members: Doron Isaacs, Nathan Geffen, Daniel Mackintosh, and Ilan Strauss.
JEWISH ISRAEL-APOLOGISTS PUT NAMES TO BOYCOTT CALL Jewish Signatories to last week’s SA Artists Against Apartheid’s (SAAAA) call for a Boycott of Israeli plays included a number of Israel apologist Jews such as: Allan Horwitz (Poet and Musician); Andy 'The Admiral' Kasrils – son of Ronnie (Entertainer and Music DJ); Daniel 'Deep Fried Man' Friedman – son of Professor Steven (Musical Comedian); Harold King (Choreographer and Dancer); and Steven Markovitz (Cinematic Film Producer). The original boycott demand, from the Church Land Program, was co-signed by none other than our own Israel apologist Jew Professor Steven Friedman, Director of the Centre for the Study of Democracy, Rhodes University and University of Johannesburg.
SAAAA (and its Jewish members) were also responsible for the recent world-wide anti-Israel media storm after the misquotation by the Boycott, Divest & Sanctions anti-Israel lobby. This directly resulted in headlines like: “SA Watchdog Declares Israel an Apartheid State” being published in over 30,000 news websites around the world. Misleading and out-of context media release of BDS campaigners eminated from an act of the SAAAA. READ MORE ON MY SHTETL.
Users are invited to have their say on this debate and to submit names for consideration of publication. Please ensure that any names you post include organisations or actions that justify requesting that we add them to our list. MyShtetl will not release any names unless we are able to verify the veracity of their actions/memberships.
(No subject)
KASRILS’ SERIOUS DRUBBING at the hands of PE community leader Chuck Volpe at UPE during Israel Apartheid Week.
Let's be objective about
Let's be objective about this thing. What does it mean to be 'anti-Israel'? Versus what does it mean to be a critic of Israel? Because we don't want to name and shame legitimate critics of Israel.
I shall give definitions from my book, "Hadrian's Echo" but first let's see some ideas out there. Steve Apfel
So what,s the actual
So what,s the actual difference between anti-Israel or a critic of Isr
ael when the critics constantly refer to the Jewish state as an apart heid state (sic )and the real apartheid states are the Islamic Arab
where Arab Palestinians are denied citizenship in these very states
they live in (Jordan,Lebanon,Saudi Arabia etc.)and are treated with contempt and suspicion by their mainly Suni Muslim rulers but there
aren,t any Jewish members of Parliament in Egypt or Iraq or Saudi Arabia,so who,s fooling who about so called apartheid states ?
I'm pro-Israel but I'm also
I'm pro-Israel but I'm also pro-Palestinian, I have no doubts that some Shtettlers would love to add me to this list!LOL
It doesn't take much these days. I am unashamedly pro progressive liberal zionism and Israel but I am deeply repulsed by the Occupation of Palestinian lands and the many human rights violations which occur as a result of the Gaza Siege and the brutal occupation taking place in the West Bank, as are many others who are liberal.
I think that we must be very careful in branding all liberal critics of Israeli policies as 'anti-Israel'
agreed
agreed
Sorry to burst Ilan
Sorry to burst Ilan Solomon,s progressive/liberal bs but he cannot pos
sibly have it both ways, a pro-Israel and pro-Palestine Jew,it doesn,t
work that way,so being branded as anti-Israel/Zionist on this blog is exactly what he,ll be referred to,whether he likes it or not ?
I have the utmost repect for
I have the utmost repect for Ilan (the person, not always the views) in that he always exprsses his opinions in his own name. Don't you think it would be for you to disclose yours in your own name? While we are pleased that you choose to post comments anonymously, we generally don't feel it fair to allow personal attacks from behind such a cloak.
Ilan, Please use the correct
Ilan, Please use the correct terms when discussing this issue.
There is no such entity as 'palestinian'.
Also there is no such a place as the West Bank.
Let me remind you that when you say you are pro-palestinian, you mean pro-arab, and when you refer to the West Bank you mean Judea and Samaria.
So Ilan Solomons is
So Ilan Solomons is pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel at the same time,ho
w politically correct of him but what else to expect from someone who has no clue of what he,s actually commenting about ,the brutal occupa tion of Gaza,by whom ,unless his politically correct pseudo-liberal
nonsense fails to recognise the Islamic Hamas who brutally got rid of
the so called but equally corrupt PLO/Fatah through the bullet not the
ballot ,the very same Islamic thugs who rule the strip with an iron fist,namely Ishmael Haniyeh,Khaled Mashal and Mahmoud Zahour,and their tunnel building and smuggling enterprise ,so much for pseudo-liberal
progressive bs ?
Don't you get sick of all
Don't you get sick of all the bluster on MyShtetl. Round and round again on the same old nonsense.
We have one Torah. End of discussion!
Either you believe that its Hashems word and you support all of it including Israel and the borders defined in it or you do not!
You can't pick and choose! It's like keeping "half Shabbos" or part kosher. You either do or you don't.
Fail to believe Torah and act upon it mean you proclaim man's stupendous wisdom is beyond that of Hashems own and you seek "progress" on man's terms. Avodah Zara is a terrible thing, and that's exactly what men fail to recognize they do when they worship their own intellect.
You support Israel or you don't, stop pretending their is so middle ground! That's just being stupid. Even our enemies like Al-Qaeda see through the rubbish "land for peace" people assume is so wonderful. They recognized its our land and openly stated and along with saying if we refused to fight for it they'd take it away because we don't deserve it. Did you ever need more evidence of Hashem causing a nation to rise up against us should we not do what he expects of us.
Tird of idiotic compromises when the answer could never be clearer.
Don’t confuse religion
Don’t confuse religion with politics, Eli.
WE are many things, among them: The Jewish Religion, the Language of Hebrew, the Country of Israel, the descendants of the Hebrew People (and converts), practices of the Culture of the Jews, and more.
This discussion relates to US politically. And while, of course, Torah and Halacha (of which there is some diversity of understanding) remain at the core of it all, this discussion remains essentially one of political views and affiliations. There are some very observant Jews who do not recognise nor condone the State of Israel. And albeit that, for the most part, they don’t shout about their views, act violently or try to inspire others to act against Israel – there are certainly many instances where they do.
So they meet the mainstream religious test, but fail the mainstream political test dismally.
Regards - ANT.
Choni, for example, is in my opinion on both the religous and the political extreme far-right - and I think he distinguishes between the two subjects quite well.
The notion that far right
The notion that far right and liberal are two different things is sad. This false narrative has supplanted the truth to such an extent even the smartest people suffer severe cognitive dissonance.
One only need look at who enacted the Jim Crow laws and who the KKK ran out of office in their attempts to marginalize minorities and disenfranchise the poor to realize how false this notion is. The Nazis were progressive, not conservative! So was Stalin. The Puritans and the Hugenots fled religious persecution, they didn't flee to much religion! The Puritans founded the freest, most equitable nation ever seen on the face of the Earth and they were implementing Mosaic law.
Separation of church and state is important for freedom of religion (and a right not to have to practice any religion), it was not that which gave people freedoms.
Choni is religious and conservative. He is not right-wing. It is impossible to call him a Nazi of any type.
It is not Jews occupying Palestinian land and we should all know that. There are many photos of that land in the early 1900s... One just needs to look.
Without the mitzvah, the idea dies - Rabbi Berel Wein
Having just come back from
Having just come back from Israel after a month of visiting family and
friends and having spent most of the time with family ,on the West Bank
i can testify to Chabad girl,s comment on Choni being religious and conservative,the same as my family,but this cannot be construed as ext reme right-wing or Nazi-like unless one has no clue what he/she is commenting on.What i did pick up in discussions etc. in Israel is how
the religious/conservative bloc dislikes Bibi Netanyahu who they think
isn,t strong enough to deal with the current political Israeli/Palestin
ian impasse ,but the Jewish state is a mainly secular democratic state
where the IDF is answerable to the civilian Jewish population and not
the other way with the military, as in most Islamic states, calling the shots,the political impasse will be resolved only when the Palesti
nian leadership ceases it,s quasi-military rule of it,s own brethren and rules through the ballot ,not the bullet,Hamas style ?
Elisheva, You are 100%
Elisheva, You are 100% correct. The only problem is that when I try to express Tanach views regarding our constant and continuous war with our enemy, the editor allows comments to be published likening my views to nazism.(I was once likened to a Gestapo officer)
P.S. I am still waiting for an 'apology' from the editor.
So Ant, You don't think it's
So Ant, You don't think it's fair for personal attacks under the cloak of anonimity. Well what about the personal attack on me by garyAUS a few days ago?
AND THE VERY PERSONAL ATTACK ON ME BY VIVIAN (comparing my views to Hitler).
P.S. everbody knows who Choni is.
Hi Choni - As we have discussed numerous times before, these are registered users whose identities and details are well known to us. As are yours. So when you post without being logged in under the name Choni and the site lists you as (not verified) because you are not logged in – or for a professional or other acceptable reason you use a pseudonym but are logged in and verified, we apply the rules that we do to “known users” – rather than those we use for “anonymous users”. That is why we often allow your comments through that we would have edited or rejected were you an anonymous to us. Happy Birthday to you – I still have the blue pin I got at school for the 15th Birthday – Now we are 64 and going strong and will forever. Viva Israel, Viva! Regards, ANT
Ant, Have you heard of
Ant, Have you heard of 'Religious Zionism' ?
This is the destiny of the Jewish nation after 20 centuries of exile.
It can only come to fruition in Eretz Yisrael, and Baruch Hashem, it is happening evey day in Israel.
That, to my mind is "extreme far right religion and politics", as you might call it.
For more information on Religious Zionism, I suggest you read the many books available on the subject. e.g The Vilna Gaon, Rabbi Avraham Yitchak Kook (Israel's first chief Rabbi) Rabbi Meir and Nachman Kahana, Rabbi Yisachar Teichtal, and many many others.
A (hypothetical) question
A (hypothetical) question for Ilan Solomons.
I read yesterday that the director of the Jewish Community Relations Council (JCRC)said that in the event that if a war broke out involving Israel, J Street would not necessarily support the Jewish state. (for those who are unfamiliar with J.Street, it is a large group of liberal Jews in America who are also Pro-Israel, and Pro-'palestinian' at the same time, as is Ilan Solomon.).
They also condemn settlements, and support the efforts of the P.A. to liberate 'stolen' arab Land.
Now my question to Ilan is. Should war break out in Israel would you also consider not supporting the Jewish state?
A rather tricky question for
A rather tricky question for Ilan Solomons who will have to think very carefully before he answers as he might just make an awful balagan of his distorted pseudo-liberal views ,we wait in anticipation ,for his
attempts at answering?
Hi Choni, I must firstly
Hi Choni,
I must firstly apologise for not responding earlier, I haven't kept up to date with this story. Secondly I must wish you a big belated mazaltov on your grandsons Barmitzvah at my shul Sydenham Highlands-North a few weeks back, he was very good you must be very proud. We were actually sitting a cross the way from you & wished you mazaltov, you didn't recognize who I was but it was interesting to see the Choni in the flesh. Mazaltov once again.
Now back to your question. I would support Israel & South Africa only in just & legitimate conflicts, I would never take up arms against either my birth country not my national & cultural homeland of the State of Israel. I hope that answers your question?
Ilan, Your answer is as I
Ilan, Your answer is as I expected albeit with much concern.
I would have thought that in spite of plurality of views in this community on many issues, there is a broad consensus that should Israel be attacked ("legitamately" or not), we put all our differences aside and stand unambiguosly behind the Land and people of Israel.
Ilan, you have put yourself beyond that consensus.
I cannot talk about S.Africa, but who are you to determine what is a just and legitamate war for Israel.
I would suggestm Mr. Editor, that Ilan's views on this matter, makes him a definite candite for the list of "naming and shaming' (even though you have utmost respect for him).
I would call his views 'treasonous'.
P.S. Ilan thank you for your kind wishes, 'bi dier optzoogeben'
I,m with Choni on this issue
I,m with Choni on this issue concerning Ilan Solomons and his confusi
on as to who he will and won,t support in times of conflict,whether it,s SA or Israel,so put Ilan on the wall of shame,there,s no ifs and
buts?
You don’t have a vote as
You don’t have a vote as you are using the site anonymously. -ED
Naming and shaming Jews is
Naming and shaming Jews is reprehensible.
So we can now surmise that
So we can now surmise that calling for boycotts,disinvestments and sanctions against Israeli citizens and companies is fine or not repreh
ensible according to Vivian but naming and shaming of Jews ,who might
be a part of the BDS campaign ,is reprehensible,confusion indeed Vivian ?
Dear Samuel, Do not put
Dear Samuel,
Do not put words in my mouth, or make assumptions on my behalf, yes shaming individual Jews by other Jews are morally and ethically reprehensible.
I do not and have not supported any initiative to boycot, disinvest or sanction Israel nor Israeli citizens either, Israel is a country on its own and its citizens are world citizens like every other citizen.
Do not confuse legitimate critisism of Irsael with the BDS campaign, they are not the same and are not persuing the same objective either.
To quote your words: "naming and shaming of Jews ,who MIGHT be a part of the BDS campaign" - (my emphases added)
Might: such a relative term, subjective in meaning and very difficult to determine responsibility and/or accountability. Who determines if such Jewish individuals are part of the BDS campaign? You? Peers? Other Jews? Seculars? Israeli's?
Definition of "might" - a word used to express a possibility, not a fact.
If someone breaks the law, prosecute them, or in civil law, sue them, otherwise, this is part of civil society and people are allowed to have and voice their own opinions, politics, whether you love their message or hate it.
Agreed Chabadgirl! To
Agreed Chabadgirl!
To selectively quote Pirkei Avot 3.15, naming and shaming of anti-Israel Jews is contrary to everything Judaism stands for.
Rabbi Elazar of Modin said: "... one who shames his fellow in public, ... or one who interprets the Torah contrary to Jewish law - even though he may have to his credit Torah study and good deeds, he has no share in the World to Come." - Ethics of the Fathers, 3:15
It also comes very close to loshon hara in my understanding.
Vivian, And likening my
Vivian, And likening my views to Hitler is O.K.
Some nerve you have.
Chabadgirl, Last year when Rabbi Y. Isaacson likened me to a Gestapo officer there wasn't a squawk from you (or the editor)
Also any Jew who causes damage to the Jewish state or people must be named and shamed according to Halacha.
Vivian, Your reference to Pirkei Avot applies only to private individuals and not to people like Richard Goldstone, Norman Finkelstein, Naom Chofsky, and many others who give comfort to our enemies.
Didn't know Naming & Shaming
Didn't know Naming & Shaming is contrary to Judaic law (you sure the above excerpt applies in this context?).
However, let's debate Naming & Shaming.
Contrast Man A and Man B. (Woman A and Woman B if you prefer.)
Man A has a flag on his car, trumpets patriotic slogans, and won't permit any criticism of his country.
Man B criticises the state of the country's healthcare system and the state of its postal service.
Question: Is Man B unpatriotic?
Answer: Man B "Names & Shames" the failing healthcare and postal services as culprits that harm his country. His country's failings pain him. He wants them rectified to make his country a better one. Man B is the TRUE patriot.
Similarly, the if the motivation for Naming & Shaming is to weeed out those whose actions lower the reputation of Israel and/or the Jewish nation, isn't that the more "patriotic' course?
Yours faithfully
STANLEY WOOLF LUNTZ
Observatory, JHB
stanl@icon.co.za
"Definitely Not Anonymous"
SWL, I note your
SWL, I note your clarification and appreciate it very much, quite insightful and very useful.
However, I do differ from your interpretation, in the sense that I read Pirkei Avot with a more generalist and universalist approach and to ME is it applicable. Naming and Shaming individuals, is trying to create a modern equivalent of Cherem. To name and shame in order to force compliance to a certain particular point of view is ineffective at best and reflects badly on the people making those allegations and indirectly Israel, at worst. We live in a world that is more connected, smaller, better informed and full of choices, shaming these individuals will NOT make Israel any friends. Nor change the individuals’ behaviour, in short it is a waste of time and likely to land someone in court for defamation of character and damage to reputation. Dealing with reputation is a difficult issue, because the definition and implication of reputation is so broad. A public person criticising Israel may be seen as damaging Israel’s reputation and in the same breath a frum Jew (or any other kind of Jew), not paying his/her employees a living wage, for example, could be seen as indirectly tarnishing Israel’s reputation, because in my humble opinion, ALL Jews, no matter what shape, size, orientation, observance or colour are representatives of Israel, because Israel is the Jewish state.
Vivian is correct in saying
Vivian is correct in saying this won't change the behaviour of the Levitts and Tannenbaums of this world.
However, some oppose the Naming & Shaming of Levitt and Tannenbaum just because those two are Jewish.
I say, do not oppose the Naming & Shaming of the Levitts and Tannenbaums simply because they are Jewish. Name & Shame them to in order to isolate them from the rest of us so we can uphold a high standard.
Recently, a former Israeli Prime Minister was jailed for rape. This upholds Israel as the only state in the ME where such justice can prevail.
Similarly, we should use Naming & Shaming to cast out such miscreants as the Levitts and Tannenbaums among us, so the rest of us can uphold high moral and ethical standards.
Regards
Stan Luntz
Definitely Not Anonymous
Critic of Israel or
Critic of Israel or Israel-hater?
The two are alike in being concerned with Israel’s behaviour, and unlike in the behaviour that concerns them.
So, consider the nature of demands each one makes on Israel. The Critic demands that Israel adopts different policies or changes the way it implements policies. The Israel-hater demands that Israel gives in to Palestinian demands, even if that means – especially if that means - Israel's destruction.
You support the right of return for Palestinian refugees? Then your're an Israel-hater because that would destroy Israel. You want Israel's security 'wall' to come down? Then you're an Israel-hater, because that will lead to Jewish death. And if you support the Arch-evil Tutu, you are certainly an Israel-hater.
For the full 7 habits of Israel-haters go here:
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-7-habits-of-effective-anti-israelites...
And while there, don't miss the piece on the Arch Tutu
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