Who can ever have predicted that Ilan Solomons’ February story about a meeting after 20 years between veteran anti-apartheid activist Rabbi Ben Isaacson and Palestinian Ambassador to SA, Dr Ali Halimeh, could cause such an uproar?
Well, truth be told, it sure did. The biggest ever on MyShtetl, in fact. Read Ilan’s short story below, and then follow the links to the threats and counter-threats of Rabbis taking each other and laymen to the Beth Din and worse.
After dozens of Shtetlers had posted 14,066 words of comment, we at MyShtetl decided that this subject required a permanent discussion forum on the website. As it turned out this was a good call as the discussion forum now has over 23,000 words posted on it by who-knows-how-many Shtetlers.
The Story…
By Ilan Solomons
A reunion of two most unlikely comrades, veteran anti-apartheid activist Rabbi Ben Isaacson and Palestinian Ambassador to SA, Dr Ali Halimeh, took place on 22 February at the Palestinian Embassy in Pretoria.
It had been almost 20 years since they last met and it was an emotional reunion for both men.
THE RENEGADE RABBI
Rabbi Ben Isaacson was an out-spoken member of the Jewish community concerning the atrocities of the apartheid regime. He took on the apartheid regime from various platforms including his own pulpit.
Rabbi Isaacson was loathed and despised by many in his own community and accused of endangering the Jewish community for speaking out on apartheid from as early as the 1960's. He even clashed with the Chief Rabbinate and Jewish Board of Deputies on several occasions. Undeterred by this, Rabbi Isaacson only increased his activism taking the stage to denounce apartheid with the likes of Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Beyers Naude. He even gave refuge to ANC activists like Ben Turok and Janet Love risking his own family's safety.
The Rabbi also served in the Israeli Defence Force and fought in combat units. He believed strongly in the principles of Zionism and the Jewish peoples' right to self-determination in its national homeland of Israel. He however also came to recognize the rights of the Palestinian people to live in dignity and freedom which only further incensed many in the Jewish community.
THE PALESTINIAN ACTIVIST
Ambassador Ali Halimeh on the other hand grew up in a Palestinian Refugee camp in Lebanon and was actively involved from an early age in the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), although he never joined or trained in its armed wing preferring to be involved in its international diplomatic affairs. He is very much a secular Muslim and has been involved in raising awareness of the Palestinian people’s plight for several decades, serving as the PA representative in various countries including Ireland, Zimbabwe and South Africa.
Although he grew up in a family of Palestinian refugees who fled during the 1948 Israeli War of Independence he acknowledged from early on that the Jewish people had certain historical, religious and national connections to the land in Israel. This view led him to trying to create dialogue with Jewish people and communities wherever he was posted on diplomatic missions.
THE MEETING OF THE TWO
In the 1980's while Rabbi Isaacson was in exile serving as head of the Zimbabwean community and also continuing to highlight the evils of apartheid, he met with Ambassador Ali Halimeh and a function in Harare. The two men began to discuss the importance of finding a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They subsequently became very close friends and Rabbi Isaacson was often a house guest of Ambassador Halimeh where they shared meals and conversation.
"The first time I brought Ben home my wife was very scared she had never met a Jew, let alone an Orthodox Rabbi who they knew had served in the IDF, she would say that he was going to spy on them,” says Halimeh. “To which I replied: well, you know, he spies on me, I spy on him," laughs Halimeh. Isaacson concurs: "Your wife was very scared of me at first, but she soon got over it and treated me like one of the family." Isaacson said that he only had fond memories of the times he spent at the Halimeh's.
However there came a time when Rabbi Isaacson would have to call upon that friendship with Ali Halimeh. Isaacson continued to be active in his anti-apartheid activism and he also started speaking publicly with Halimeh about the concept of the Two States Solution which was just too much for the local Jewish community of Zimbabwe and they wanted to get rid of Isaacson and send him back to South Africa. The communal leadership essentially ended his contract and requested that the authorities deport him within a matter of weeks.
Fearing a return to South Africa which was still under the apartheid regime, Isaacson called on his friend Halimeh, whose intervention to the highest levels of the Zimbabwean Government got the Rabbi a 10 year extension on his passport and save him from imminent deportation back to South Africa.
Halimeh gained nothing from intervening on Isaacson's behalf. In fact he could well have put himself at risk of political repercussions but this did not deter him. When asked why he did what he did Halimeh's response was simple: "Ben was my friend and comrade he was pro peace and justice in South Africa and he also supported peace between Israeli's and Palestinian's and most importantly for me he was, is and always will be my friend and comrade."
"I will always be grateful to Ali for what he did for me," says Isaacson.
THE EMOTIONAL REUNION
At the end of a very emotional and stirring meeting held in Ambassador’s office, the two men hugged and promised to ensure they remained in contact.
Although they do not agree on everything concerning the path to lasting peace in the middle-east and both recognize that the current state of affairs is rather bleak but they both continue to hold out hope for a Two State Solution.
The incredible story of friendship between a PLO diplomat and a Zionist-Orthodox Rabbi who stood up for justice for all people, is something which should serve as model for the possibility of a lasting not only peace between Israelis and Palestinians, but friendship and co-operation generally.
Inshallah, Bezrat Hashem, God Willing speedily in our days. Amen!
The ensuing arguments…
THE ORIGINAL ARGUMENT – 16,000 WORDS OF IT!
The discussion forum: “Is land-for-peace justified in Halacha? And, if so, has it has been proven that it will in any event fail?”
This is the question posed by Rabbi Yoni Isaacson, Rabbi Ben’s son, which we moved over to a discussion forum space. “…and please,” asked Rabbi Yoni, “let’s stay friends while we [discuss] this.”
This stemmed from an acrimonious debate in the wake of Ilan Solomons’ story had been published on MyShtetl. Shtetlers (of whom several are Rabbis) posted over 9,000 words in close to 50 comments in just the first week. Shtetlers should not get confused by the fact that Rabbi Ben Isaacson has two sons who are Rabbis – a more left-leaning one in Joburg and a right-leaning one in Israel.
Both come to dad’s aid.
And even old Rabbi Ben gets involved by making his
first foray into the digital world by posting his thoughts
SHTETLER DISCUSSION FORUM on the issue of Land-for-Peace
It would be interesting to
It would be interesting to hear if the proposers of the debate on Land for peace, Ilan Solomon, and Rabbi Issacson, still hold the same views as they originally had.
Not that it matters, since it is only the Israeli people who will decide the issue, and, baruch Hashem, Israel is becoming more and more a belief based state every month.
THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER ARAB'STATE' ANYWHERE WITHIN THE BORDERS OF ERETZ YISRAEL.
I can state categorically
I can state categorically that I support the ending of the savage,barbaric and inhumane Occupation of Palestinian lands in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. This is the only way to ensure to continuation of Israel as a Democratic State and to ensure the Palestinian right of self determination is fulfilled, like the one that we (the Jewish People) have!
The Jewish people brought about the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, as a result of leaders at the time not being willing to compromise with the Romans, we had fanatics who even destroyed our own food supplies. Today we have another group of stubborn extremists called the Chareidim/Ultra-Orthodox and the Settlers who are opposed to finding a compromise not only with the Palestinians but with their fellow secular and moderate religious Jews.
The stubbornness of the Jewish leadership caused not only the loss of Jewish sovereignty in the Holy Land but led the Jewish people into exile where we faced pogroms,Crusader massacres,Inquisitions,and eventually the Holocau
st. So much Jewish dignity,honour and blood has been lost as a result of one appauling decision by our leaders of generations gone by. Do we want to allow extremist inflexibility to cause the destruction of National Homeland once again? I hope not!
Judea is the tribal land of
Judea is the tribal land of the tribe of Judah, the very tribe we derive the term Jew from. It is not the West Bank!
Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran, but we've been praying in it and towards it for thousands of years.
Even a rudimentary understanding of the actual UN resolutions would demonstrate that this is not an occupation. Occupation is a PA political term to get political mileage and you fell for it.
Today the PA spiritual leader, the Fatah Imam, called for genocide of all Jews per their Islamic Hadith that tells all Moslems to do so. They have absolutely no intention to live side by side in peace and openly declare that in their speeches, educational materials and their refusal to recognize Israel as Jewish in the peace negotiations. It's an absolute no for them, while they expect Israel to recognize their Palestininian state. That PA that you support the ANC giving money too wants you dead! No collaboration or appeasement will save you.
The Koran calls for slaughter of Jews in many places, but only mentions our land as belonging to us. Even that hateful book recognizes its our land, but you say we're occupiers! Moslems slaughtered us in the hundreds of thousands during WW2 and they ave no intention of stopping. They believe their religion is right and that means we must be eliminated. Quite unlike you they follow their faith.
You don't deserve to call yourself a Jew! You're selling out your own people for a mythical long shot that there might be peace, when the evidence is clear they will not stop until Israel and Jews are removed from the planet!
As for you blaming our leaders for the Shoah and other atrocities against us... How sick are you? How dare you blame victims for the crimes committed against them. You're as bad as the worst anti-Semites I've seen. Yes, Jews can be anti-Semites too! Torah observant Jews are not extremists. Those few idiots we've seen in Israel laely do not constitute a big percentage of Hareidim or Ultra Orthodox Jews either. You're just hateful towards anyone who differs from you.
You just stepped over the line. I hope everyone ignores you from now on. By nailing your colors to the mast you rejected all Jews.
This comment by Elisheva
This comment by Elisheva should be on the main page, and kept there for an indefinite period.
Dear Darling Elisheva, I am
Dear Darling Elisheva,
I am aware of the history of the name Jew but thank you none the less. The West Bank is the modern name of the territories of Judea and Samaria. I am no expert an expert on Islamic literature but the name Al-Quds (the Arabic name for Jerusalem) does appear in Islamic literature, possibly in the Hadith not explicitly in the Koran.
The UN Resolutions clearly and equivocally state that Israel is in an Illegal belligerent Occupation of Palestinian lands. This is not a PA construction but an international law one.
I read this the article about this Palestinian religious leader who made those outrageous and deplorable statements, which are no different from extremists like Kahanists and those Rabbinical scumbags who supported the King Torah book which calls for the Genocide of all Non-Jews in Israel and Palestine. We like the Palestinians have our own religious madmen which must be condemned strongly!
Again I am no expert on the interpretation of Islamic texts, but like you - I assume - have read the Koran and some of the Hadiths, and have read those passages concerning the Jews. I have had discussions with a few Islamic scholars on these issues and basically what most said that those versus related to the days of the Islamic Prophet Mohammed when in the early days of Islam there was armed conflict between the Jews and the early Muslims, but are no longer relevant today. Another interpretation is that those versus were allegories and versus not to be taken literally. Again, I leave it to you to choose an interpretation which you prefer. However, I think you should also not be opportunistic and ignore the violence and bloodshed which our own Holy Torah talks about concerning the Caanites, Amonites, etc and obviously the Amalakites. Islam is not alone in having conflict with other nations and civilizations in its history and its religious texts.
I never blamed our own people for the atrocities that were committed against us, GOD FORBID; I was illustrating how the loss of our national homeland as a result of inflexibility and stubbornness or extremism has caused so much suffering for us, the Jewish people. If we had compromised with Rome we may well have avoided the persecution, decimation and destruction of the Jewish people in Europe throughout the ages. Obviously there are never guarantees of anything, but history is something which we have to learn from in-order to avoid repeating past mistakes. If we do not reach a compromise with the Palestinians we risk losing our national homeland again, and history has shown us this can result in catastrophic consequences for the Jewish people!
There is an outstanding book on the topic of the relation between Rome and Judea. It is entitled 'Rome and Jerusalem - The Clash of Ancient Civilizations' by Prof Martin Goodman. Chapter 11 is the most relevant one for this discussion, it is entitled 'The Road to Destruction' 37BCE-70CE and it shows how the destruction of Judea could have been avoided, if the Jewish leadership of the time had been open to compromise with Rome.
Hope you keeping well Elishev. All the best darling.
That's absolutely
That's absolutely ridiculous.
The PA spritual leader openly and publicly calls for genocide of Jews, Hamas states openly and publicly they will take land in a two state solution and then continue to seek the destruction of Israel and the removal of Jews from the land and you still believe in the pipedream of a two state solution! Hamas is not some fringe group either. They won an election, quite unlike Abbas who is 3 years beyond his term and refusing to hold elections! Hamas is the voice of the people there!
So it's their leaders that are insane now. Are you suggesting that's okay because we had some nut jobs centuries ago?
Are you honestly saying readers of MyShtetl should believe your rationalizations and some comments from your Moslem friends over the truth staring them in the face.
I certainly hope everyone doesn't suffer from the same cognitive dissonance you do. It's that type of dissonance that resulted in the mass slaughters of the Shoah! (and yes, you did blame the Jewish leadership for the massacres in the Shoah).
There are no partners for peace in the Middle East. There are only people who want to dismantle Israel on piece at a time.
By your absurd reasoning Hamas should give Gaza back. It was obtained in a land for peace deal, but they shoot rockets daily. They didn't keep their end of the bargain so they must give the land back.
If the Muslim Brotherhood reneges on the land for peace deal under which Israel released the land they annexed in Sinai to Egypt, then they must give it back too.
After all a deal is a deal!
If you think annexing land is illigitemate then consider that nearly every nation on Earth has land that it has annexed that has become part of it's territory. Texas in the USA was annexed in the mid-1800s!
Saying Al-Quds is mentioned in the Hadith is absurd. The Koran came ino existence after the Christian Bible, yet even the Christian Bible mentions Jerusalem in connection to their faith.
The Hadiths were written long after the Koran and yet they mention Al Quds once.
The fact it took so long for them to mention them, and then not even in a way that is central to their faith makes their claim illegitimate, and at the very least highly suspect.
They conquered that land for a short period, decimated the Jewish poplations there and in Medina and somehow you think that gives them rightful claim to the land. As a South African you should know better! The Europeans conquered South Africa for 400 years, yet no one accepted it was their land no matter what the excuse. Moslems conquered ours for 130 years and you're standing there making excuses for their claims.
As for interpretation, it's not how we interpret it, or your Moslem friends. What matters is how they interpret it and indoctrinate THEIR children. These verses are entirely relevant. Just like Orthodox Jews understand Torah, observant Muslims observe the words of the Quran and the perfect prophet. No element of Sharia, the Koran or the Hadiths has been abrogated, and you're just a sucker for the spin. They believe the Koran is the word of G-d, and that Muhammad is the perfect example of how to live.
How can the behaviour in the Middle East, all over that place, not show you just how seriously they take their faith. They're more observant than we are, and they use a tool we don't have, and no other religion has, called taqqiya (lying to further the cause of the faith), just to fool people like you. There is no Muslim majority nation on Earth that does not suppress other religions violently and subjecate women to the level of cattle. They use the J word as happily as people in South Africa used the K-word during apartheid.
Stop hearing what you want to hear, and ask the tough questions. Ask your friends if they truly believe any part of the Koran is out of date. The Imams already say it's not! Even your friends in the PA have an Imam leader who tells them to do what the Koran insists they do! How can you believe it's outdated when the PA tells them to kill all Jews, you see stonings all the time, you see news articles about women having to marry their rapists or be jailed and put to death. These things all come from the Koran and the Hadiths too!
The daily news should be enough. Go and read what is happening in Southern Thailand, Malaysia, Nigeria, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya and Afghanistan in addition to the Middle East countries. It is appalling.
They're your friends until they have no use for you. It's been going on in every nation. It happened during the secular overthrow in Iran, and it's just happened in Egypt too. Wake up. How much more death and oppression do you need to witness before you stop pretending the problem is a real one and life threatening.
As for that Al Aqsa Mosque, perhaps you should research the history of it too. The far mosque as it's name implies was not actually in Jerusalem, it was in what is now known as Saudi Arabia. Go find out how the one in Jerusalem came to exist. Go find out why their so-called 5th most important mosque stands on what is our most sacred place.
It is you who needs to read dear!
How dare anyone remove our access to our temple grounds for their 5th most important place... what nonsense and what an insult. And you stand up for it like there is nothing wrong!
It is not the West Bank (a replacment name simply to soften the blow to Jews like you who fall for it) it is Judea and Samaria!
They have their Mecca, a place no no-Moslem is allowed to enter. We have our Jerusalem and no ignoramus gets to throw it away.
Bullies respect people who stand up for themselves. Just last year Al-Qaeda themselves acknowledged our claim to our land but stated just as clearly that if we did not stand up for the land G-d gave us we deserved to lose it. For extremist, evil people to recognize that and not you is patently absurd. Al-Qaeda are some of the most devout Muslims on Earth and they understand more about our Jewish history than you do!
So go do some reading... Your cognitive dissonance is astounding. How can your truth be more important than THE truth.
While I too don't really
While I too don't really like what you're saying, I agree with your point on our religious madmen. They too are inexcusable.
Without the mitzvah, the idea dies - Rabbi Berel Wein
It's Martin Luther King day
It's Martin Luther King day here today. In the spirit of that here are some relevant and authenticated (there iare a lot of unauthenticated quotes out there that are lies) quotes from him. A man who gave his life in the struggle for the rights of his minority here also had the guts to stand up for all minorities.
These were the words of a real leader... We need more Jews who could be a little more like him!
"Israel's right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable."
"Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality."
"I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews -- because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all."
"When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism."
Without the mitzvah, the idea dies - Rabbi Berel Wein
The comment from Elisheva
The comment from Elisheva (1/16/2012 9.23) should be featured on the main page of My Shtetl for an indefinite period!
Dear Elisheva, Hamas and
Dear Elisheva,
Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Palestine, like the religious extremist parties in Israel like Shas, United Torah Judaism, and National Union are an impediment to lasting peace between Israel and Palestine. The vile rhetoric from the PA Imam is also inexcusable! The issue is that we like our Palestinian cousins had and continue to have extremists. You are clearly unaware of the current set of Israeli Rabbi's preaching and teaching hate and racism against Palestinian's here are some article from Israeli Newspapers to educate you on the current group of rabbinic bigots: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4130091,00.html,http://972mag...., I could bring more articles but I think this is a good start to show you the problem of religious extremist racism and bigotry is still very much relevant in Jewish society and in Israel specifically!
The interpretation of the Koran came from not just some Islamic friends that I have but of Muslim Scholars, which I do believe have a greater understanding of their Holy texts than you Elisheva.
You are entitled to believe that I blamed us for our own suffering as your friends from the flat earth society are entitled to believe that the earth is flat.
Islamic extremism is no joke I agree it undoubtedly poses a threat not only to the Jewish people but to world peace. Groups like Al-Qaeda, Iran, Hizbulla, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Al-Shebab, etc are not to be taken lightly by any means.
Well you are once again forgetting that our own beloved forefather Yaakov Avinu essentially lied to steal the birth right away from Eisav! So lying and deception is not foreign to our faith either!
Racism and bigotry no matter who it comes from is totally disgusting.
The only way to bring justice and peace between Israel and Palestine is speedily establish an Independent Palestinian State a long side the State of Israel with a shared Capital in Jerusalem.
In fairness, let's ask the
In fairness, let's ask the only question that really matters.
Why are no Islamic moderates standing up against groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, "radical" interpretations of Sharia and the Koran, and the dictators?
Jewish and Christian media and groups all over the World decry the actions of people like the Real IRA, the Orange Brigade, and the Jewish extremists in Israel. We judge ourselves and expose our actions constantly.
Why is there a stunning silence from moderate Muslims the World over? What Islamic government or major Muslim group has piped up at all about the rabid anti-Semitism in the PAs textbooks, or the insane actions of the Taliban, Hamas and Hezbollah. Has one even dared to question Sharia being implemented so widely and it's effect on women, children and non-believers in all the countries it has been implemented.
I think we live in a very scary World. Good men in the Muslim world are not standing up, and in refusing to do so they let evil prevail. You might want to debate why they don't stand up, but that isn't the point. The fact is they're not and no Jew or Christian is preventing them from doing so.
This is not true many Muslim
This is not true many Muslim leaders have publicly condemned radical Islamist groups. The leaders span many countries and include the likes of Imam Fethullah Gullen of Turkey and Islamic Organizations like the Free Muslim Coalition which opposes all forms of violence and terrorism against non-Muslims.
Check out http://www.freemuslims.org/ and there are other similar such organizations which I can give you the links for if you would like.
No, no, no... a government
No, no, no... a government or leader in the community, not some dissidents. You need to provide evidence that the majority decry the behviour, not the few. Otherwise you're not proving anything other than saying those who want piece are the fringe.
Without the mitzvah, the idea dies - Rabbi Berel Wein
Deer (in the headlights)
Deer (in the headlights) Ilan,
We all know wonderful people who happen to be Moslem. We all know about Muslim apologists too, just as there are Jewish apologists. The dispute is not about good people.
The simple fact is that the interpretations and translations of the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence do not concur with your friends. It is the reason their words brim with anti-Semitic vitriol, and the reason they hate Christians and any form of Islam not their own.
You can't claim extremism and fringe elements when the leadership of many nations institute Sharia and don't allow Jews to travel their. Hamas was elected by a majority despite people in Gaza knowing what they were. The Muslim Brotherhood was voted in by a large majority along with Salafists. If you respect democracy you must accept that is the will of the people there! The same applies to the governments of Pakistan, Malaysia, Philipines and so on. Wherever their is an opportunity people vote for Islamists and Sharia and it gets implemented.
To them we are idolaters and people who believe G-d is chained by his promises. To them All-h is a G-d of will and completely unfettered by anything, anyone or even his own promises. It's a different way of thinking and one you cannot try an liken to your own way of thinking. Why is it Egyptians who just fought for a secular democracy voted for the most extremist parties in droves knowing full well it meant Sharia and a big likelihood of war with Israel. If you can't understand it, perhaps you need to acknowledge you're misinformed.
There are no excuses for forcing 7th century discrimination against non-Mosems, women and children, yet it continues onward even in relatively stable countries.
Stop trying to convince us that it's okay. You're just creating another mindset that will see us being led like lambs to slaughter once again. The governments of Canada and Australia see it, some of te Republican candidates are articulating it clearly, and worse still many leaders of Islamic groups and actions openly sate it, yet you claim all are wrong!
We never believed how quickly Germany changed, but it did. The same applies to the history of the Middle East. We were so shocked people could be so cruel until we were murdered. I'm sure there were millions of good Germans, as there are millions of good Muslims who do not seek to harm their fellow man, but they didn't hold the reigns of power! It's those in power that threaten Israel and will do anything to win. You can't wish them away or apologize for them.
No matter how you might want to feel about the situation, the situation exists. Kids in that region are indoctrinated to believe where filth and it is their holy books tat are used to justify that. Even if that might be considered unIslamic in some schools of Islamic thought it is what is happening. You need to deal with the actual problem, not make excuses fr it. Excuses buy time and result in death. Our fellow Jews live under a cloud of immense foreboding throughout the entire planet. We always have. It's time you stood with them.
I'll not be responding to your progressive views of Torah. Your examples fly in the face of actual commentaries by our sages that you will find in all the major Chumashim, just like your information about Islam flies in the face of their major schools of jurisprudence.
There is no question that
There is no question that certain Islamic countries have backwards policies and ones which are blatantly bigoted. Of this there can be no question! However we must acknowledge the Muslim countries where Jews have lived and flourished for many years, and have often acted as safe sanctuaries for Jews in times when they faced Christian harassment, this includes countries like Turkey, Kazakstan, Albania, Morrocco, Tunisia and although the State of Israel has a very hostile relationship with the current megalomaniac, Islamofascist Iranian regime, it has a Jewish population of over 25 000 and has been in existence for over a thousand years.
Once again I must emphasize that I am not making excuses for Islamic extremism as I would not do for Chareidi Extremism and Settler thuggery in the Occupied Territories, but when we point out extremism in another faith we must first address our own extremist elements.
Torah is intrinsically progressive - I don't mean Reform, Reconstructionist, Masorti, etc - but that it evolves as all living civilizations have to do, as Judaism has done throughout its existence. And as it will please God continue to do in-order to remain a truly living faith
You really are
You really are misinformed.
Turkey was attacked and forcibly converted from Christian to Moslem. Constantinople was a major center of Christianity and the Moslem onslaught was was caused the Crusades! Perhaps you believe their innocent victim narrative in the Crusades as much as you believe in the Palestinian cause. How gullible are you exactly?
In fact every single country you've mentioned was conquered and had it's religion and it's culture subsumed by Islam. What happened then is now encroaching further south into Africa. Eventually we'll all be good little dhimmi's paying the jizyha and watching our girls being kidnapped, raped, forcibly converted and married or sold because people like you fall for the taqqiya. If you think I'm exaggerating why not just take a look at what is going on with unbiased eyes and you'll see it in the news daily.
As for Jews living under Islam, we did so as long as we were good little Jews living as 2nd class citizens. We did not flourish under them and we were taxed for the sin of living while Jewish.
It really is time you did a little more truth seeking, and a little less believing. We have many great Rabbis that provide shiurim after doing enormous research. They're not all radicals that hate either.
In totality Jews have always been 2nd class citizens since the diaspora, even in their homeland, until 1948, and they have been no better off under Moslem or Christian tyranny. You're falling for yet another false narrative I used to believe until I scratched below the surface a little. You just have to look at how we behave to recognize that we're a surpressed nation; the beaten housewives of abusers who cower and beg to just live quietly. The nation who gave 90% of the land given us in the Balfour declaration and quietly and submissvely thanked the World for the 10%, only to now find ourselves negotiating to have that halved too. Jordan was the land allocated to Palestine. Even during the 80s the monarchy of Jordan was saying so in public!
For most of my years I've wanted to believe what you believe right now, but I'm just not seeing any real evidence to back your claims up.
I still believe there are wonderful people who are Moslem, but that doesn't change what Islam is. Neither does it change the fact that the vast majority of Moslems resort to didactic repetition of the Koran and their prayers and don't understand a single word of what they're saying. In that respect they are just like many of us Jews who don't know what we're reading, with the exception that we have a handy transliteration in our prayer books and Chumash.
Consider this prayer that is recited as they circle their Ka'Ba. "O All-h vanquish the unjust Christians and the criminal Jews, the unjust traitors; strike them with your wrath; make their lives hostage to misery; drape them with endless despair, unrelenting pain and unremitting ailment; fill their lives with sorrow and pain and end their lives in humiliation and oppression; inflict your tortures and punishments upon the unjust Christians and criminal Jews. This is our supplication, All-h; grant us our request!"
It's a bit more than "kill the farmer, kill the boer" - if you think it is just tradition or something similar, then at least attempt to explain why in every single Moslem country on Earth we're seeing churches attacked, Blble burned, girls kidnapped and forced to convert and people being killed for preaching or converting? These things are often perpetrated by ordinary people in those countries, not just a gang of crazies. In fact those gangs only exist where Muslims do not rule, such as Nigeria and Somalia. Elsewhere these crimes are government sponsored or the government turns a blind eye while the religious authorities do insane things.
We know that Julius and Peter signing that song was incitement, but somehow we don't think all those prayers and verses in Islam are anything but peaceful!
I can't explain the grief I feel when I read about yet another Christian girl being kidnapped in Pakistan knowing full well the police fail to act and her family is threatened if they pursue it.
While I don't expect to convince you, I can tell you're smart enough to actually research what I mention rather than just glibly reply. You really need to look at the state of the World today and question whether your truth is the truth. There are a great many Jews who couldn't believe that the Nazis would become what they became, but in retrospect it is easy to see how the situation developed from before 1933.
I'm not suggesting anyone should hate Moslems. They are our fellow men. Let's just understand that there is a global movement that wants Islam to dominate all nations and we need to be alert before we have no freedoms left at all. Just as they do, we need to stand up and be counted. They benefit from the incredible wealth Hashem has given them in their lands. They do not have an unfair portion given to them by our Creator.
To-day in the "occupied
To-day in the "occupied territories" there will be a memorial for the Fogel Family. That was "thuggery" in it's cruelist form.
Ilan, from what I understand
Ilan, from what I understand you are in contact with both Rabbi Yoni Isaacson.
Please can you ask him for his comment on this:
http://e.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?cat=390&id=702&q=