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“This isn’t specifically an issue to the SAZF,
the SAJBD also ban women from singing”
Charlotte Fischer - SACRED
Womens' rights under scrutiny
“Near-exclusion of women irks SA group,” read the headline in A JPOST ARTICLE published this morning. “Charedi groups believe that men are prohibited from listening to women sing in public.”
The group referred to in the J-Post story is SACRED (the SA Centre for Religious Equality & Diversity) which was formed last year by the Progressive Jewish movement together with various other interfaith bodies. Charlotte Fischer, the executive director of SACRED, said that the group had chosen “to celebrate Freedom Day in part by beginning a campaign for women’s freedom. We’re launching a video with eleven prominent female members of our Cape Town & Joburg community explaining why they oppose the exclusion of women from singing in secular events.”
Several women’s groups had objected to the SA Zionist Federation’s plans to ban female entertainment at the Joburg celebrations of Yom Ha’atzmaut for the third year in a row – before WIZO and the FED agreed to a last minute compromise last month.
“SACRED has been working hard to get this video out, and have embarked on an integrated campaign to spread this as wide as possible,” they said in a media release over the weekend. “We have our page up on Face Book, and the hits on Youtube have been phenomenal to say the least.”
The video (SEE BELOW) aims at “treating women with respect, and dignity, while offering them constitutionally guaranteed equality, is in the best interest of a democratic South Africa,” says the group. While they accept and respect that “some within the Jewish community are free to choose to interpret Jewish law to mean that they should not hear women sing,” says SACRED, “they do not have the right to impose such restrictions on the broader community.”
The video below was filmed by Gill Benjamin and Kyle Ferguson, edited by Gill Benjamin and produced by SACRED:
J-Post said that “Women were almost barred from singing at a Jewish ceremony in South Africa last week on religious grounds,” and that “SACRED, a Jewish organization linked to the Reform movement, said women were allowed to sing at the Independence Day event organized by the South African Zionist Federation in Johannesburg only after a last minute compromise was made that they would be part of a mixed-gender choir.”
“The original ceremony for the three previous years had all male performers,” said Rabbi Robert Jacobs, who is affiliated with the group. “This year we learned the Zionist Federation was approached by Israelis and other residents and we wanted to make sure they would have that opportunity.”
Jacobs told J-Post that Jewish women in SA have been increasingly sidelined from communal events in recent years due to opposition from the Charedi community.
SACRED said women had sung at Israeli Independence Day events in the country for 60 years until three years ago. “There is a clear shift,” Jacobs told J-Post, referring to opposition to women singing at the recent Independence Day event. J-Post said that the Fed, which organized the Independence Day event, “did not respond to an inquiry before press time.”
“This week in South Africa we have celebrated Freedom Day, which marks 18 years since we became a democracy,” said Lynton Travis of SACRED. “Our Constitution places a duty upon us to promote equality in all spheres of our lives. Gender equality is central,” said Travis.
“Please sign up on our website www.sacred.org.za or ‘like’ our facebook page if you are interested in being part of our campaigns,” Travis asks.
The South African Centre for Religious Equality and Diversity (SACRED) was formed in September 2011 to provide a progressive Jewish voice on relevant social, moral, ethical and religious issues in South Africa: to counteract religious discrimination in all its forms; to advance freedom of religion and to promote fundamental rights and freedoms through advocacy, activism, scholarly contributions to public discourse and public interest litigation. Whilst they are motivated by their Jewish values, they say they aim to be working for civil rights and social justice throughout South African society. They model their work on that of their parent organisation, the Religious Action Center, based in Washington, in whose office the Civil Rights Act was drafted, and the Israel Religious Action Center, based in Jerusalem.
Submitted by Ilan Solomons on Tue, 05/01/2012 - 17:40.
Kol Hakavod to SACRED and all my fellow SA Jewish patriots who have taken a stand against this vile creeping chareidi Taliban like mentality which is seeking to exclude women from all forms of public communal events which are attended by both genders.
SA Jewry has always been known for its moderation, we can not allow chareidism to pollute our communal identity any further. Its long overdue that we Jews both Orthdox,Non-Orthodox and secular fought back against the bigotry and extremism which chareidism is seeking to impose on our community.
Submitted by Rabbi D (not verified) on Fri, 05/11/2012 - 15:23.
Hi
If I re-read your comment, what comes to mind is the following saying
"Sometimes being to liberal causes some people to be fascists" !
It sounds like you are looking to purify the community of this Charaidi filth because you deem them to be causing degeneration to our community and you think they don't fit into the Jewish culture.
Submitted by darrensevitz on Wed, 05/02/2012 - 09:14.
I’ve decided to form a group – it’s called SAWLTEPAONKPAAPEAEAHBTOR (South Africans Who Like To Eat Pork And Other Non Kosher Products At All Public Events And Even At Home Because That’s Our Right).
In this modern day and age of democracy and freedom to do just about anything we like, I am abhorred at being excluded from eating the foods I like at communal events. Granted – the Code of Jewish Law prohibits consumption of these items – but that’s just an interpretation, and for those who choose to abide by these strictures, I say “go ahead” – there will be kosher food as well at these events, you are entitled to follow your own path. Or, when non-kosher food is served, you can simply leave. But why oh why should I be excluded from enjoying the foods I love, just because a small minority of closed minded charedi Taliban insist on food that meets their narrow minded interpretation.
If I want a cheese burger at the Yom Ha’atzmaut celebrations, it should be provided. Not making it available is a direct assault on my religious freedoms and right to choose.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 05/06/2012 - 21:57.
This is truly a moronic comment of cosmic proportions. Allow me to explain:
A communal activity should be just that - open to all members of the community, including women.
There are indeed various Halachic opinions which would enable women to sing in public and without having the men present transgress the injunction of Kol Isha, to wit:
1. A number of women singing in unison or with men is not Kol Isha
2. The use of microphones obviates Kol Isha
To compare women who wish to participate in a public ceremony by singing with those who eat pork is tasteless.....
The Orthodox community does not need liberals to jump in and force their views on them under the ridiculous fabrication that Orthodox people who voice their beliefs are repressing others. It's the usual fare of ad-hominem attacks from Liberals who insist that by excluding Orthodox people or forcing their view on them that they are somehow modern and inclusive.
Why can't liberal people voice their perspectives and vote with their feet like everyone else. They don't need to attack others views to make a point. Just say what you believe and decide whether to go or not. Be vocal about that instead of hating those who don't believe as you do. That's freedom of religion. Try it!
I'm sure the organizers can make their own minds up about how they might cover their costs, possibly create revenue for the organization and that includes deciding what audience they wish to attract. You're talking about the "community activity" as if somehow women were being barred from attending, while the organizers were determining if women singing might affect the numbers of attendees. There is a difference!
Why were Israeli minorities such as Moslems and Christians not specifically included or catered for at an Independence Day celebration for a country with two official languages and freedom of religion? If women must entertain, then so must they! Stop the lies! There should be pork, there should Halaal, there should be crosses and crescents, there should be female Rabbis offering prayers and the LGBT community should be represented too. Israel is the most liberal and democratic country in the ME! Those who demand that women sing are hypocrites if they don't simply demand that all the rights enshrined in the SA bill of rights and accepted in Israel are also required for a community event.
Submitted by Kol Ishah (not verified) on Wed, 05/09/2012 - 11:56.
What an idiotic reply from Sevitz. He should rather have remained anonymous.
It is a fact that "Kol beIsha Ervah" is a hotly debated topic and there is no one unanimous halachic view. There are many valid and authoritative halachic opinions that do not frown upon a man hearing a woman sing.
In Berachot 24A the Talmud lists three examples of immodesty – revealing a woman’s shoulder uncovered, revealing a woman’s hair uncovered, revealing (hearing) a woman’s voice directly.
All three cases should follow the same principle: immodesty is contextual, not abstract and timeless. An act or state of dress is immodest only if one uncovers that which is normally covered – if thereby one arouses a sexual response not validated by any connection or relationship with the person who uncovers.
Inasmuch as women singing are heard all the time in our society, it is not immodest to sing nor does it constitute arousing lust to hear such singing – all the more so when the context is singing holy words of Torah and/or prophecy, in a situation of taking on the commandments.
By comparing this to eating pork... Hi Shtetler under nom deplume, If you are a regular user you will know that we don’t allow personal insults by anonymous posters and hence we have removed this sentence. -EDITOR ...but also guilty of transgressing the prohibition of "placing a stumbling block before the blind".
In any event the UOS should not be pronouncing on the Yom Ha'atzmaut celebrations -it is outside their domain.
Submitted by Rabbi D (not verified) on Fri, 05/11/2012 - 14:31.
Hi
Interesting logical conclusion
but I think with all the above there is a minimum requirement,(look in shulchan Aruch )
I don't believe that if you lived in a society were all woman went around only in underwear
Any Orthodox Rabbi would say ,it still falls in the realms of tznios.
Submitted by samuel (not verified) on Thu, 05/10/2012 - 14:21.
By making pork and other non-kosher products available at a mainly Jewi
sh Zionist Yom Haatzmauth celebration ,when clearly the majority of folks attending the celebrations don,t eat the pork products etc. for
rather obvious reasons Darren Sewitz pleads his religious freedoms etc.
for the availability of what most Yiddisher folk don,t want to see ,so much for religious freedoms ,but what about the majority and their right to choose?
This "tongue-in-cheek" comment trivialises the issue and/or ultra-orthodox trend of diminishing and silencing the voice of religous Jewish women in the public domain.
It is a real issue and it must debated. Reminds me of the photoshopped picture, of removing all references to women in newspapers etc.
Do not give me the patronising nonsense that women are more spiritual than men, their true purpose is to only fulfill the mitzvot of taharat hamishpacha, challah, lighting candles and keeping a kosher kitchen.(i.e. cooking and making babes)
As women we do exist, we are capable of public debate and we do participate in the public domain, as long as it is not within an Israeli or religious context, which makes me wonder why women would want to be observant in the first place. Women not allowed to perform at a SECULAR celebration (that was the status quo for 3 years) in a democratic country, what gives.
Removing women from the public domain does not cure men from not being able to handle their own thoughts and feelings and it should not be used as an excuse for any mans bad behaviour. Next thing you will read that women are abused, assaulted (such as being spit on or vilified) or even worse raped, because they heard her voice and could not control themselves. Bah humbug! Oh I forget, it happens all the time!
Then if you call a man or organisation on it, they label you as a feminist or worse a liberal, the new swearwords and method to shut her or the "Other" up.
Just to be clear... so I'm sure I understand completely.
“some within the Jewish community are free to choose to interpret Jewish law to mean that they should not hear women sing,”
After that they can then shut-up and pretend they don't exist.
They should just get used to being excluded from events until such time as they realize they are NOT "free to choose to interpret Jewish law to mean that they should not hear women sing,"
Unless I'm mistaken (a distinct possibility), SACRED is right; there is no law that prohibits a woman from singing.
However, there is a law that says men may not listen to a woman singing.
The solution is simple: Make the event completely secular, allow the women to sing, but don't expect observant Orthodox men to attend or participate. Simple, isn't it?
Except we all know that it's not that simple because somebody will stand up and scream that because Orthodox men exercise their right to obey the law and refrain from hearing a woman sing frum Jews are anti-Israel and anti-Zionist etc etc etc.
PS I haven't watched the video... bandwidth issues
Submitted by Ilan Solomons on Mon, 05/07/2012 - 13:42.
Darren Sevitz and other chareidi extemists in our community should be appalled by the huge chilul Hashem that they have caused by seeking to firstly exclude women from Jewish Communal public events & at mocking their plight. Check out this article posted in Haaretz - http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/welcome-to-johannesburg-where-women-are-c...
Submitted by chabadgirl on Tue, 05/08/2012 - 07:53.
There is no excuse for Orthodox men abusing women, and by trying to hide behind Halacha it only makes them worse. Good Orthodox Jews everywhere know that abuse is both unacceptable and illegal. If people are aware of such crimes they are obliged to report them to law enforcement. Those who don't stop it effectively become accomplices to it!
To those Orthodox people that believe Halacha comes from Hashem through our judges and sages what is being said about Orthodoxy is insulting in the extreme. Using Hareidi as a slur, calling Orthodox Jews Taliban (radical, violent Muslims are the Nazis of our time) and calling us extremists is disgusting. It demonstrates a level of prejudice far beyond any level of prejudice Orthodox people are being accused of.
Orthodox people take upon themselves a number of stringencies in order to avoid unintentional sin. It's about 3000 years of keeping the same observances (or however old a ruling might be). It is not about gender. I'm baalat teshuva and work in hi-tech, but somehow I see value in that and think its worth doing. I can't explain what Hashem needs or why he needs it. I can't explain chukim and mishpatim. No one knows all the reasons, but it seems some people think its our democratic right to decide for Hashem and force that on the less enlightened "extremist" "Chareidi" "Taliban" amongst us. How arrogant!
Last week we learned in the parsha that we were not to adopt the laws of the Egyptians and Canaanites, and our Sages have said it is also said simply because Jews seem to adopt the least righteous behavior of Goyim and not the most righteous behaviors. Human nature is what it is, and so observing halacha actually protects us. Less observant people might be prompted to ask sarcastically, "protect us from what?" I'm not answering, it is obvious!
I do think Yom Haatzmaut events should serve the needs of those attending, but in this comment I'm more concerned with addressing the abuse being served on Orthodox people.
Stop referring to fellow Jews as Nazis or jihadists. Both seek to commit genocide upon all Jews, regardless of level of observance. Taliban murder rape victims for committing adultery, throw acid in the faces of women who dare to go to school and expect women to walk around covered in what essentially is a body bag for the living... How much must you hate a fellow Jew to make any kind of reference to them as either Nazi or Taliban like? The unbridled enthusiasm to attack fellow Jews on this site is simply going to result in lost visitors to the site.
Without the mitzvah, the idea dies - Rabbi Berel Wein
Submitted by jeffreydorfman on Tue, 05/08/2012 - 09:55.
Dear Darren,
The Rambam, ZTL wrote a halacha that if woman who walks in the marketplace without a veil, her husband is entitled to divorce her without paying dmei ketuba (money she can use to support herself after the divorce that is specified in the mandated Jewish wedding contract).
In order to protect women from divorce without future support (and protect then from the indignity of the immodesty of it all), should married women all wear veils at Jewish community events?
Surely this is more important and more central to everyone's Judaism than these small issues of women singing or keeping kosher.
Submitted by darrensevitz on Tue, 05/08/2012 - 15:11.
Dear Jeff,
Great question - the RaMBaM was referring to the Mishnah in Ketuvot Ch7 (see also the gemara there on 72a). You may have stumped me and painted me into a corner.
Personally however, I would rely on the Igrot Moshe 1:114 and perhaps also the Aruch Hashulchan OC 75:8. Look them up, tell me what you think. I haven't found any of these sources which permit non-kosher food though, but I may be mistaken.
Submitted by jeffreydorfman on Thu, 05/17/2012 - 06:36.
Dear Darren,
Yes, Ramba”m appears to be referring to the Mishnah in Ketubot that specifies cases in which a man may divorce his wife without dmei ketubah. I pointed out (and I am not sure if you noticed) that he appears to consider someone walking in the market without a VEIL to be transgressing against dat yehudit. That is different than what is written in the gemara and is different than what is practiced and accepted today, even in the most insular right-wing Jewish communities. So, I was not intending to discuss the minutiae of rabbinical opinions concerning what one should or should not do in the presence of a married woman who does not cover her hair.
I was rather pointing out that the conception of what is proper for a women to do and wear has is not so static or so uncomplicated in halacha and tradition over time. For example, does your wife or your mother vote in elections? That is contrary to the opinion of Rav Kook, who did not live that long ago. Beis Yaakov schools were accepted in the nineteenth century but surely would not have been in the seventeenth. There are tshuvot that refer to Jewish communities in Cappadocia in which married women did not cover their hair, so even this practice was not universal in religious Jewish communities in the past.
And here, in a public forum, you belittle people who have a different conception of what is proper for a woman to do in public. You compare this issue to eating pork, and suggest that you will “form a group”, whose name and essence can only reasonably be interpreted as belittling SACRED. I can’t see how this furthers dialogue or protects the good name of the UOS, who should not be associated with or involved in such alienating attitudes or behaviour towards members of the Jewish community. You should be trying to bring Jews in, rather than looking nasty and petty and unable to deal with world views that differ from your own. I’d like to be proud of our Jewish communal structures, and your comments on this page make that very difficult.
Submitted by darrensevitz on Thu, 05/17/2012 - 08:55.
Fair comments Jeff. We can agree to disagree. I value your opinion even though I may not agree with it, and I respect your right to express it. This is a big discussion and probably more suited to the beit medrash than myshtetl. I especially want to commend you for (1) using your real name, and (2) expressing your disagreement with me in a courteous and civilised manner,not insulting or attacking me personally as others have, and playing the ball and not the man. Many users on this site can learn alot from you.
My comments are my own and not official UOS policy. I am registered on this site as an individual and not as a representative of any organisation, unless I comment in that capacity. I do however see that people will make that connection irrespective and I should be more careful in that regard.
Submitted by Asher Smith (not verified) on Tue, 05/08/2012 - 15:50.
Greetings to all!
I certainly know a thing or two about being an oppressed member of the Jewish community.
I live in Israel, and despite the fact that there are over 15,000 of us here, we suffer the same fate as the Conservative and Reform movements at the hand of the Orthodox establishment.
We get no official recognition, no money for programs, no support - simply because we believe differently to those in control, or those who control those in control.
It's good to see though that in South Africa, a movement in starting that will properly push for equality within the Jewish community, and promote tolerance of those of us who dare to follow different interpretations and dogmas.
looking forward to seeing you all at next year's Yom Haatzmaut celebrations!
Asher
Hi Asher, I sincerely thank you for your contribution to this debate – and am pleased that you obviously enjoy MyShtetl. I have, however, removed your last words of protest as that is a discussion we do not allow on this website. There is very little freedom of expression that we do supress, and you are welcome to think me a fool, but this is one of our devout and absolute no-no’s and not debatable. You are welcome to believe the Moshiach has come. Ant Katz, publisher
Submitted by Dan Rowe (not verified) on Thu, 05/10/2012 - 19:59.
2 simple points:
1. There are hardly any Chareidi Jews in South Africa.
2. Charedi Jews don't go to a Yom Ha'atzmaut party anyway because it has music during the Omer and because they don't feel as strongly about the State as a religious entity.
South African Jews need to realise that they are so few in number that its not worth having so much machlokes!
Submitted by Jayman (not verified) on Thu, 05/17/2012 - 09:27.
I'm afraid that the only solution to this problem is that all community occasions are going to have to have two separate events--one in which women will sing and one in which they will not. This is the only solution that I can see.
The bulk of the South African Jewish community is made up of Jews who are of a traditional mindset and are Orthodox by affiliation, but not necessarily so by practice or by conviction. Together with this large bulk, we can add the unaffiliated Jews, the Israelis, and the Reform. This large group does not understand why women should be excluded from singing, when they were allowed to do so in the past, and they are correct. Orthodox Jews must not vilify this large section as dismissive of Jewish tradition or watering down Judaism. This group mostly cherishes their Jewish identity, but expresses it differently from the Orthodox, and the Orthodox must learn to accept that.
On the other hand, you have the Orthodox community itself, including the rabbinic leadership, which can't permit women to sing in their events. The liberal section of the community needs to learn to accept that these people are not 'excluding' women because they're intolerant or fanatical, but because they are adhering to what they truly believe in. How can you expect a frum Jew to be part of an event where women are singing? It's against his faith, and those who call such frum Jews intolerant, are themselves intolerant.
So I say, let's have two separate events. Does it compromise Jewish unity? No it does not, because when push comes to shove, we have unity. On all the important issues, like fighting antisemitism, promoting Jewish survival, and supporting those less fortunate, both groups come together. And if they have separate events, then it only means that each group is honoring and celebrating Jewish life and tradition in the best way they know how.
Submitted by chabadgirl on Thu, 05/17/2012 - 11:06.
Well said. Religious freedom is a two-way street, as is tolerance. Interestingly Orthodox seems to mean something very different in South Africa to what it means in the US.
Here it is definitely about observance, rather than simply shul membership, affiliation and/or birth Mom. I get odd looks when I talk about "Orthodox people" in ZA who are not observant. It took me a while to realize people here find the ZA description very confusing and contradictory. If you went to an event with women singing you might not be considered Orthodox at all.
It is not just Chareidi people that don't listen to music during the Omer, many Chassidic Jews will only listen to acapella music. It's a deeply spiritual time.
Submitted by darrensevitz on Thu, 05/17/2012 - 11:21.
A few years ago, I campaigned (in my personal capacity) for just that - a separate YH event. Not only because of women singing, but for other religious considerations. I was (and am) uncomfortable with the way it is treated as just a Jewish 4th of July, when I would prefer to have a more religious flavour to it - an event which is almost like a Yom Tov, with praise and grattitude to God for the miracle which is the State of Israel. Not just a carnival.
In any event, wherever I went, the idea was squashed. The feeling I got was that it would create more disunity than unity, since as you point out, most of the community do attend this secular event.
Kol Hakavod to SACRED and
Kol Hakavod to SACRED and all my fellow SA Jewish patriots who have taken a stand against this vile creeping chareidi Taliban like mentality which is seeking to exclude women from all forms of public communal events which are attended by both genders.
SA Jewry has always been known for its moderation, we can not allow chareidism to pollute our communal identity any further. Its long overdue that we Jews both Orthdox,Non-Orthodox and secular fought back against the bigotry and extremism which chareidism is seeking to impose on our community.
Hi If I re-read your
Hi
If I re-read your comment, what comes to mind is the following saying
"Sometimes being to liberal causes some people to be fascists" !
It sounds like you are looking to purify the community of this Charaidi filth because you deem them to be causing degeneration to our community and you think they don't fit into the Jewish culture.
Sorry if I have Offended you
Please Re-Think your Comment
At last the discussion
At last the discussion enters the public domain. Thank you SACRED for standing up for us.
I’ve decided to form a
I’ve decided to form a group – it’s called SAWLTEPAONKPAAPEAEAHBTOR (South Africans Who Like To Eat Pork And Other Non Kosher Products At All Public Events And Even At Home Because That’s Our Right).
In this modern day and age of democracy and freedom to do just about anything we like, I am abhorred at being excluded from eating the foods I like at communal events. Granted – the Code of Jewish Law prohibits consumption of these items – but that’s just an interpretation, and for those who choose to abide by these strictures, I say “go ahead” – there will be kosher food as well at these events, you are entitled to follow your own path. Or, when non-kosher food is served, you can simply leave. But why oh why should I be excluded from enjoying the foods I love, just because a small minority of closed minded charedi Taliban insist on food that meets their narrow minded interpretation.
If I want a cheese burger at the Yom Ha’atzmaut celebrations, it should be provided. Not making it available is a direct assault on my religious freedoms and right to choose.
Viva SAWLTEPAONKPAAPEAEAHBTOR Viva.
This is truly a moronic
This is truly a moronic comment of cosmic proportions. Allow me to explain:
A communal activity should be just that - open to all members of the community, including women.
There are indeed various Halachic opinions which would enable women to sing in public and without having the men present transgress the injunction of Kol Isha, to wit:
1. A number of women singing in unison or with men is not Kol Isha
2. The use of microphones obviates Kol Isha
To compare women who wish to participate in a public ceremony by singing with those who eat pork is tasteless.....
"Moronic" mmm... No he's
"Moronic" mmm... No he's being sarcastic.
The Orthodox community does not need liberals to jump in and force their views on them under the ridiculous fabrication that Orthodox people who voice their beliefs are repressing others. It's the usual fare of ad-hominem attacks from Liberals who insist that by excluding Orthodox people or forcing their view on them that they are somehow modern and inclusive.
Why can't liberal people voice their perspectives and vote with their feet like everyone else. They don't need to attack others views to make a point. Just say what you believe and decide whether to go or not. Be vocal about that instead of hating those who don't believe as you do. That's freedom of religion. Try it!
I'm sure the organizers can make their own minds up about how they might cover their costs, possibly create revenue for the organization and that includes deciding what audience they wish to attract. You're talking about the "community activity" as if somehow women were being barred from attending, while the organizers were determining if women singing might affect the numbers of attendees. There is a difference!
Why were Israeli minorities such as Moslems and Christians not specifically included or catered for at an Independence Day celebration for a country with two official languages and freedom of religion? If women must entertain, then so must they! Stop the lies! There should be pork, there should Halaal, there should be crosses and crescents, there should be female Rabbis offering prayers and the LGBT community should be represented too. Israel is the most liberal and democratic country in the ME! Those who demand that women sing are hypocrites if they don't simply demand that all the rights enshrined in the SA bill of rights and accepted in Israel are also required for a community event.
What an idiotic reply from
What an idiotic reply from Sevitz. He should rather have remained anonymous.
It is a fact that "Kol beIsha Ervah" is a hotly debated topic and there is no one unanimous halachic view. There are many valid and authoritative halachic opinions that do not frown upon a man hearing a woman sing.
In Berachot 24A the Talmud lists three examples of immodesty – revealing a woman’s shoulder uncovered, revealing a woman’s hair uncovered, revealing (hearing) a woman’s voice directly.
All three cases should follow the same principle: immodesty is contextual, not abstract and timeless. An act or state of dress is immodest only if one uncovers that which is normally covered – if thereby one arouses a sexual response not validated by any connection or relationship with the person who uncovers.
Inasmuch as women singing are heard all the time in our society, it is not immodest to sing nor does it constitute arousing lust to hear such singing – all the more so when the context is singing holy words of Torah and/or prophecy, in a situation of taking on the commandments.
By comparing this to eating pork... Hi Shtetler under nom deplume, If you are a regular user you will know that we don’t allow personal insults by anonymous posters and hence we have removed this sentence. -EDITOR ...but also guilty of transgressing the prohibition of "placing a stumbling block before the blind".
In any event the UOS should not be pronouncing on the Yom Ha'atzmaut celebrations -it is outside their domain.
Hi Interesting logical
Hi
Interesting logical conclusion
but I think with all the above there is a minimum requirement,(look in shulchan Aruch )
I don't believe that if you lived in a society were all woman went around only in underwear
Any Orthodox Rabbi would say ,it still falls in the realms of tznios.
By making pork and other
By making pork and other non-kosher products available at a mainly Jewi
sh Zionist Yom Haatzmauth celebration ,when clearly the majority of folks attending the celebrations don,t eat the pork products etc. for
rather obvious reasons Darren Sewitz pleads his religious freedoms etc.
for the availability of what most Yiddisher folk don,t want to see ,so much for religious freedoms ,but what about the majority and their right to choose?
This "tongue-in-cheek"
This "tongue-in-cheek" comment trivialises the issue and/or ultra-orthodox trend of diminishing and silencing the voice of religous Jewish women in the public domain.
It is a real issue and it must debated. Reminds me of the photoshopped picture, of removing all references to women in newspapers etc.
Do not give me the patronising nonsense that women are more spiritual than men, their true purpose is to only fulfill the mitzvot of taharat hamishpacha, challah, lighting candles and keeping a kosher kitchen.(i.e. cooking and making babes)
As women we do exist, we are capable of public debate and we do participate in the public domain, as long as it is not within an Israeli or religious context, which makes me wonder why women would want to be observant in the first place. Women not allowed to perform at a SECULAR celebration (that was the status quo for 3 years) in a democratic country, what gives.
Removing women from the public domain does not cure men from not being able to handle their own thoughts and feelings and it should not be used as an excuse for any mans bad behaviour. Next thing you will read that women are abused, assaulted (such as being spit on or vilified) or even worse raped, because they heard her voice and could not control themselves. Bah humbug! Oh I forget, it happens all the time!
Then if you call a man or organisation on it, they label you as a feminist or worse a liberal, the new swearwords and method to shut her or the "Other" up.
@Darren : would love to know
@Darren : would love to know your viewpoint on the actual issue at hand, and not your yearning for cheeseburgers.
Understood. Just to be
Understood.
Just to be clear... so I'm sure I understand completely.
“some within the Jewish community are free to choose to interpret Jewish law to mean that they should not hear women sing,”
After that they can then shut-up and pretend they don't exist.
They should just get used to being excluded from events until such time as they realize they are NOT "free to choose to interpret Jewish law to mean that they should not hear women sing,"
Is that correct?
I'm feeling more included already.
Unless I'm mistaken (a
Unless I'm mistaken (a distinct possibility), SACRED is right; there is no law that prohibits a woman from singing.
However, there is a law that says men may not listen to a woman singing.
The solution is simple: Make the event completely secular, allow the women to sing, but don't expect observant Orthodox men to attend or participate. Simple, isn't it?
Except we all know that it's not that simple because somebody will stand up and scream that because Orthodox men exercise their right to obey the law and refrain from hearing a woman sing frum Jews are anti-Israel and anti-Zionist etc etc etc.
PS I haven't watched the video... bandwidth issues
Darren Sevitz and other
Darren Sevitz and other chareidi extemists in our community should be appalled by the huge chilul Hashem that they have caused by seeking to firstly exclude women from Jewish Communal public events & at mocking their plight. Check out this article posted in Haaretz - http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/welcome-to-johannesburg-where-women-are-c...
So you start with ad-hominem
So you start with ad-hominem attacks and then continue to make accusations of mockery and continue the name calling.
Not singing at an event is not a "plight" and not wanting to attend is a right!
You're the extremist.
There is no excuse for
There is no excuse for Orthodox men abusing women, and by trying to hide behind Halacha it only makes them worse. Good Orthodox Jews everywhere know that abuse is both unacceptable and illegal. If people are aware of such crimes they are obliged to report them to law enforcement. Those who don't stop it effectively become accomplices to it!
To those Orthodox people that believe Halacha comes from Hashem through our judges and sages what is being said about Orthodoxy is insulting in the extreme. Using Hareidi as a slur, calling Orthodox Jews Taliban (radical, violent Muslims are the Nazis of our time) and calling us extremists is disgusting. It demonstrates a level of prejudice far beyond any level of prejudice Orthodox people are being accused of.
Orthodox people take upon themselves a number of stringencies in order to avoid unintentional sin. It's about 3000 years of keeping the same observances (or however old a ruling might be). It is not about gender. I'm baalat teshuva and work in hi-tech, but somehow I see value in that and think its worth doing. I can't explain what Hashem needs or why he needs it. I can't explain chukim and mishpatim. No one knows all the reasons, but it seems some people think its our democratic right to decide for Hashem and force that on the less enlightened "extremist" "Chareidi" "Taliban" amongst us. How arrogant!
Last week we learned in the parsha that we were not to adopt the laws of the Egyptians and Canaanites, and our Sages have said it is also said simply because Jews seem to adopt the least righteous behavior of Goyim and not the most righteous behaviors. Human nature is what it is, and so observing halacha actually protects us. Less observant people might be prompted to ask sarcastically, "protect us from what?" I'm not answering, it is obvious!
I do think Yom Haatzmaut events should serve the needs of those attending, but in this comment I'm more concerned with addressing the abuse being served on Orthodox people.
Stop referring to fellow Jews as Nazis or jihadists. Both seek to commit genocide upon all Jews, regardless of level of observance. Taliban murder rape victims for committing adultery, throw acid in the faces of women who dare to go to school and expect women to walk around covered in what essentially is a body bag for the living... How much must you hate a fellow Jew to make any kind of reference to them as either Nazi or Taliban like? The unbridled enthusiasm to attack fellow Jews on this site is simply going to result in lost visitors to the site.
Without the mitzvah, the idea dies - Rabbi Berel Wein
Dear Darren, The Rambam, ZTL
Dear Darren,
The Rambam, ZTL wrote a halacha that if woman who walks in the marketplace without a veil, her husband is entitled to divorce her without paying dmei ketuba (money she can use to support herself after the divorce that is specified in the mandated Jewish wedding contract).
In order to protect women from divorce without future support (and protect then from the indignity of the immodesty of it all), should married women all wear veils at Jewish community events?
Surely this is more important and more central to everyone's Judaism than these small issues of women singing or keeping kosher.
Best regards,
Jeff
Dear Jeff, Great question -
Dear Jeff,
Great question - the RaMBaM was referring to the Mishnah in Ketuvot Ch7 (see also the gemara there on 72a). You may have stumped me and painted me into a corner.
Personally however, I would rely on the Igrot Moshe 1:114 and perhaps also the Aruch Hashulchan OC 75:8. Look them up, tell me what you think. I haven't found any of these sources which permit non-kosher food though, but I may be mistaken.
Rgds
DS
Dear Darren, Yes, Ramba”m
Dear Darren,
Yes, Ramba”m appears to be referring to the Mishnah in Ketubot that specifies cases in which a man may divorce his wife without dmei ketubah. I pointed out (and I am not sure if you noticed) that he appears to consider someone walking in the market without a VEIL to be transgressing against dat yehudit. That is different than what is written in the gemara and is different than what is practiced and accepted today, even in the most insular right-wing Jewish communities. So, I was not intending to discuss the minutiae of rabbinical opinions concerning what one should or should not do in the presence of a married woman who does not cover her hair.
I was rather pointing out that the conception of what is proper for a women to do and wear has is not so static or so uncomplicated in halacha and tradition over time. For example, does your wife or your mother vote in elections? That is contrary to the opinion of Rav Kook, who did not live that long ago. Beis Yaakov schools were accepted in the nineteenth century but surely would not have been in the seventeenth. There are tshuvot that refer to Jewish communities in Cappadocia in which married women did not cover their hair, so even this practice was not universal in religious Jewish communities in the past.
And here, in a public forum, you belittle people who have a different conception of what is proper for a woman to do in public. You compare this issue to eating pork, and suggest that you will “form a group”, whose name and essence can only reasonably be interpreted as belittling SACRED. I can’t see how this furthers dialogue or protects the good name of the UOS, who should not be associated with or involved in such alienating attitudes or behaviour towards members of the Jewish community. You should be trying to bring Jews in, rather than looking nasty and petty and unable to deal with world views that differ from your own. I’d like to be proud of our Jewish communal structures, and your comments on this page make that very difficult.
With best regards,
Jeff
Fair comments Jeff. We can
Fair comments Jeff. We can agree to disagree. I value your opinion even though I may not agree with it, and I respect your right to express it. This is a big discussion and probably more suited to the beit medrash than myshtetl. I especially want to commend you for (1) using your real name, and (2) expressing your disagreement with me in a courteous and civilised manner,not insulting or attacking me personally as others have, and playing the ball and not the man. Many users on this site can learn alot from you.
My comments are my own and not official UOS policy. I am registered on this site as an individual and not as a representative of any organisation, unless I comment in that capacity. I do however see that people will make that connection irrespective and I should be more careful in that regard.
Now this is the way to
Now this is the way to debate and behave. Nice Mr S, nice.
Greetings to all! I
Greetings to all!
I certainly know a thing or two about being an oppressed member of the Jewish community.
I live in Israel, and despite the fact that there are over 15,000 of us here, we suffer the same fate as the Conservative and Reform movements at the hand of the Orthodox establishment.
We get no official recognition, no money for programs, no support - simply because we believe differently to those in control, or those who control those in control.
It's good to see though that in South Africa, a movement in starting that will properly push for equality within the Jewish community, and promote tolerance of those of us who dare to follow different interpretations and dogmas.
looking forward to seeing you all at next year's Yom Haatzmaut celebrations!
Asher
2 simple points: 1. There
2 simple points:
1. There are hardly any Chareidi Jews in South Africa.
2. Charedi Jews don't go to a Yom Ha'atzmaut party anyway because it has music during the Omer and because they don't feel as strongly about the State as a religious entity.
South African Jews need to realise that they are so few in number that its not worth having so much machlokes!
And what, pray tell Dan, is
And what, pray tell Dan, is the proper definition of "Chareidi"?
I've been looking for this for years
I'm religious and went to Yom Ha'atzmaut this year, I just didnt go into the entertainment tent.
I'm afraid that the only
I'm afraid that the only solution to this problem is that all community occasions are going to have to have two separate events--one in which women will sing and one in which they will not. This is the only solution that I can see.
The bulk of the South African Jewish community is made up of Jews who are of a traditional mindset and are Orthodox by affiliation, but not necessarily so by practice or by conviction. Together with this large bulk, we can add the unaffiliated Jews, the Israelis, and the Reform. This large group does not understand why women should be excluded from singing, when they were allowed to do so in the past, and they are correct. Orthodox Jews must not vilify this large section as dismissive of Jewish tradition or watering down Judaism. This group mostly cherishes their Jewish identity, but expresses it differently from the Orthodox, and the Orthodox must learn to accept that.
On the other hand, you have the Orthodox community itself, including the rabbinic leadership, which can't permit women to sing in their events. The liberal section of the community needs to learn to accept that these people are not 'excluding' women because they're intolerant or fanatical, but because they are adhering to what they truly believe in. How can you expect a frum Jew to be part of an event where women are singing? It's against his faith, and those who call such frum Jews intolerant, are themselves intolerant.
So I say, let's have two separate events. Does it compromise Jewish unity? No it does not, because when push comes to shove, we have unity. On all the important issues, like fighting antisemitism, promoting Jewish survival, and supporting those less fortunate, both groups come together. And if they have separate events, then it only means that each group is honoring and celebrating Jewish life and tradition in the best way they know how.
Well said. Religious freedom
Well said. Religious freedom is a two-way street, as is tolerance. Interestingly Orthodox seems to mean something very different in South Africa to what it means in the US.
Here it is definitely about observance, rather than simply shul membership, affiliation and/or birth Mom. I get odd looks when I talk about "Orthodox people" in ZA who are not observant. It took me a while to realize people here find the ZA description very confusing and contradictory. If you went to an event with women singing you might not be considered Orthodox at all.
It is not just Chareidi people that don't listen to music during the Omer, many Chassidic Jews will only listen to acapella music. It's a deeply spiritual time.
A few years ago, I
A few years ago, I campaigned (in my personal capacity) for just that - a separate YH event. Not only because of women singing, but for other religious considerations. I was (and am) uncomfortable with the way it is treated as just a Jewish 4th of July, when I would prefer to have a more religious flavour to it - an event which is almost like a Yom Tov, with praise and grattitude to God for the miracle which is the State of Israel. Not just a carnival.
In any event, wherever I went, the idea was squashed. The feeling I got was that it would create more disunity than unity, since as you point out, most of the community do attend this secular event.